Playing Catch-up

Posted on June 26, 2007 by kathryn

In the Irwin chapter of “Oceans of stories” the fact that almost every story has a link to another does not surprise me in the least.  If you think about it, there are only so many ways to tell a fable or to teach a moral to others.  Almost every culture has thier own version of Cinderella and if you look at creation myths, they all have roughly the same elements within them.  I’m not saying that they are all the same, but the similarites are there. 

Another reason these stories may be linked is the simple fact that when people travel together, they will talk and exchange ideas as well as stories to ease the bordom of the trip.  This is true even in our own culture, only now we use DVD players instead of storytellers.

On to “History of 12-century Philosophy.”  I agree with badspeller about all the name dropping, like he said in class today. (Sorry, can’t think of your name at the moment.)  Anyway, Dronke, seems to like the sound of his own voice, and he says a great deal, using elaborate language, so that he can seem above those of us who must suffer through his writing. 

Dronke has a few interesting points about how the Arab culture has influnced the western way of thinking.  He also has a great deal to say about how the works were translated and how the lingusit at the time did not do a very good job of it.  Of course this is true even today if you have a piece of literature translated from its original language to another, you are always going to loose some meaning simply because the person translating the text will do so in his/her own fashion.

Posted in Cultural Connections, storytelling | Comments Off on Playing Catch-up

Confusion but an attempt

Posted on June 26, 2007 by badspellar

I tried, I really did. But pushing past all fo the name dropping and big words is tough for a tired student so I will try my best to give out some interpretations on “A History of 12th Century Western Philosophy.” I would write about Colish’s work but failed to find it. I’ll look again tomorrow when my eyes aren’t as crossed but I can’t say I didn’t try.

To begin with, I got a mixed message from this text. One moment Dronke is saying how Arab philosophers are essential in the developement of Western Christian thought. Okay, got it, there was respect for the Eastern thought, even though they are still considered infidels and bad to the Westerners during their crusades.

Dronke also uses the word “apologetic” a number of times. Can anyone clarify what he means exactly? I thought that the Crusaders didn’t care about the infidels, and yet they are apologetic to the Arabs.

One of the (what I consider) major parts of the text is the recognition that there were translation issues from Arabic to Latin and so a number of consequences occured that unwittingly shaped the Latin language and skewed the understanding of the Arabic texts. For starters there was a diproportion in the languages with the words meaning being. In Arabic there are many terms that funtion as synonyms for said word and the Latin language had problems with this. Secondly translators who saught accuracy in the translations used Latin words in an unfair, technical sense. Also new, phonetic words were created when translators ran out of options. Finally, the act of tranlating Arabic into latin created new Latin words.

What confuses me is that Dronke says all of this and then sates “The translations from Arabic do not seem to have done much to enlarge the scope of philophical Latin in the Middle Ages” but the theories of Aristotle elaborated by the Arabs entered the Western Christian Philosophy.

So wait, it was Aristotle, not the Arabs, that shaped Christian Philosophy? So was Arabic simply the barrier between the West and ancient Greece?

Pretty much what I got out of this text was that the Arabs had written a lot of Aristotle’s works and then the West took it from them and translated their writings into Latin. Dronke also dabbles in the idea of the East’s influence in Western Science but with all of the back-tracking and name dropping I was pretty much lost. I understand that noetics provided Western thought a new way of thinking and the ideas of morals were incorporated through the work “Disciplina.” Overall the point is made that the Arabs had a significant impact on the West and no one really awknowledge it then so it is not really common knowledge today.

Posted in Cultural Connections, evolution | Comments Off on Confusion but an attempt

Irwin Chapter 3/ Menocal Chapters 1 & 2

Posted on June 25, 2007 by bford

the other- Menocal writes that the recent surge, over the past few centuries, in the development of Europe and the Americas, due to imperialist pursuits, has led them to classify themselves as a distinct entity from the Arab cultures that had helped lay the groundwork for the very same Renaissance that had given the western world power.  Because the west found itself as the victors of war it was able to record history as it saw fit and  only gave anecdotal credit to the Arab cultures for helping establish the rudiments of western progress. Instead the west has alienated itself from these cultures that tremendously aided their now privileged existence and ignores the fact that the dark ages were only a dark age in western societies; the cultures of the middle east as well as the Arab influence in Spain were making great strides in areas such as mathematics and the arts (architecture & music/poetry).  The recorded histories of the west sought to cut ties with these eastern influences once in a position of authority.

evolution – Irwin writes that there is no clear cut origin of the written story, in large part due to the influence of the oral tradition in storytelling, and that it is important to realize how one story facilitates the creation of others.  This free flowing movement of ideas cannot be pinned down and is in a state of constant flux.  At all times a new story is being created that cannot be accounted for without having to draw upon previously encountered texts or spoken words.  This fluid notion of literature gives the reader the idea of of it being almost a living, breathing thing that will certainly be nurtured into varying novel forms.

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Initial Reaction

Posted on June 25, 2007 by badspellar

Oceans of Stories

There were a number of strange and unnerving ideas placed forth by Irwin that I have never thought about before. For starters I have never contemplated the origins of stories until today. It shouldn’t be surprising that the original story, THE story, cannot be traced back to any particular, original idea. This reminds me very much of what T.S. Elliot would say about poetry and the lack of creativity a writer has to offer. It’s eye-opening to realize that the Arabs and Egyptians were the possibly some of the first to bring out stories that would later be picked up by the Europeans who would call them their own. Irwin’s attempt to connect all of these cultures got confusing since his explanations seemed to hop all over the historic timeline and cultural boundaries.

I knew that it is difficult to be able to trace many stories due to the fact that they were passed on orally across generations and cultures. But the racism and sexism of the time is incredibly frustrating, not because of the obvious inequalities its produces for those in the past but rather the skewed historical records and difficulties of understanding where a story originated from. But better yet is the fact that Arabian Nights was not considered literature due to its vulgarity yet the Europeans embraced such imagery and continued to look down at the Arabian lifestyle. And fiction in general was considered a low-status type of writing.

In my ignorance, I didn’t see the purpose of story-telling going beyond simple entertainment. But according to Irwin these stories were also ways to teach young princes morals and provide beggars with a means of earning some extra coins.

While nations were divided by war and power struggles it is amazing to think that there were still deep-rooted ties between the countries. On cannot escape the influence of other cultures, no matter how hard one tries.

It is amazing to hear about the resilience of these stories. We simply read them in our youth or watch them on the television with absolutely no idea on how they had come to be. The Middle East had a great impact on the European story and in turn
America’s concept of a story. It’s funny to think that much of their credit was taken away, not just because of the racism but also due to
Arabia’s dislike for stories. There was no fad for stories in the Middle East so
Europe embraced it and took most of the credit.

So wrote this yesterday but this stupid site decided not to publish it. here is my second attempt…

Posted in Cultural Connections, vulgarities | Comments Off on Initial Reaction

Welcome to Islam & Medieval Western Literature

Posted on June 6, 2007 by islammedlit

Posted in islamedlit | Comments Off on Welcome to Islam & Medieval Western Literature